Then, during the week, I was involved in non-Indian activities-school related activities-a lot. When I went to college, I was the class president. I was president of the Inter-Relationships Club, and I was the chairman of what we called the Life Service League, which consisted of a group of young men-we went out to rural churches and gave testimonies and different things ...

RM: When you say churches, are you referring to Christian Churches?

BH: During the college years, it was the non-Indian churches. On weekends, it was the Native American Churches.

RM: So, you were getting exposure simultaneously to both traditions.

BH: Yes. In the (Christian) tradition, I saw communion services. During that communion I began to watch how our Native preachers would build up to a real high point of fellowship, in the spiritual sense. And then, it was a custom to end that service with the right hand of fellowship shaking hands, where all the men would be on one side and the women would be on the other side.
We would sing. Our songs are antiphonal songs. There's a leader, and people would answer-they would take the main course of a song and it just went on that way. Many of our songs are very touching songs.

RM: So, everybody gets to participate.

BH: Yeah. And the women would all go around shaking hands in a circle. When they got through, then the men would start. The leader would start, then they would shake hands all the way around. During that time, there would be preachers exhorting that perhaps this might be the last time we're all getting together like this, but because of the faith we have there is a better place where we all will meet one day. You could see some of the women crying, and even the men would shed tears because maybe their getting up in years, or some might be ill of some kind of sickness and perhaps that might be the last time, and so on.
At that time, I began to question: Is the true purpose of that communion that we're supposed to hold Biblically. Are we bypassing that true purpose of communion and thinking of ourselves as "Hey, I might die!" I was just a young kid, so you never told your elders anything, or questioned them to any great extent. But among my own peers, I used to say that communion ought to have the same tone, which is the basis of our faith upon a crucified savior, who was crucified for us. It says "In remembrance of me, take the cup, take this bread."
Now, to sustain that focal point and that thought, it should somehow be kept there, projecting that. Rather than go beyond it to just ourselves: we might die, this might be the last time we're singing together...which is all right! There's not anything wrong, as far as our fellowship goes.
I had an inquiring mind as a young boy. I tried to see all sides-I'm not saying I was right, or anything. It was just a big question for me. That's what led me to attend seminary, majoring in Biblical Greek, so that I could break it down and explain it in my own language what the scripture means. Who does it apply to? What was the situation? How can we use it for our benefit today? What does it teach us now? That was my main purpose with taking that.

RM: It's very unusual to see in the same person the Christian teachings-it's Baptist, is that correct? You're a Baptist Minister.

BH: Yes.

RM: Along with traditional native teachings. Do you see conflicts here?

BH: If it's a religion, you have many different forms and techniques. Even the form of baptism: Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist. If you ask for immersion, a Methodist preacher can immerse you. But, very few people do that.
So, I learned early that religion is religion, and whoever believed a certain way, that's their right to believe and to practice it. I (say) that mostly because of my traditional training-spirituality is the main force. The Spirit cannot be divided up. So, there's no conflict. It's just the ways at arriving at the same point. You can take a bus, take a train, you can hitchhike, or whatever, to get to your destination. One may be quicker, and one may take a little longer. .. but as long as you reach that destination ... So, there was no conflict within me ... no confusion, or anything .. .! just stayed focused on living an abundant life. We're supposed to.
One of the things that I thought about also in the established religions with their teachings: if you go beyond that teaching, you suffer consequences. If you think in that line, it could easily turn out to be a religion of fear. Fear of overstepping the boundaries and so on. But, if you have had an experience of oneness with God, then you have that abundant life based on love! Because of that, you have the freedom to live the abundant life and still believe, and still do, without fear of consequences.
That's why I'm 78 years old today and I haven't been in a hospital for over fifty years! I live one day at a time, with my own faith.

RM: We see a lot of people today in the dominant culture moving away from the traditional Christian churches because they have not given people what they really need, and their intense interest in materiality, in fact, this is one of the reasons there is such a strong interest in native culture. How do you see this, and how have you been involved with it, having such a deep background in the traditional teachings as well as the Christian teachings?

BH: For a while I pastored different churches. I led the Indian churches west of the Mississippi, in terms of converts and baptism among adults. As a result, I became Director of Evangelism for all the Native Indian Baptist Churches and missions west of the Mississippi for three years. There, I challenged the families many times of allowing their children to go to church: you come with them to see that everything is on the up-and-up.
This exposed the families to challenges in the Christian experiences. Many of the families stayed together. There were problems, but they would seek me out and we would discuss them and I would pray with them and so on. I was for the young people and also the elders of the churches. I tried to balance out ways I could meet their needs as a pastor.
A pastor that has a staff of other ministers-one does the visiting in the hospitals, one does the absentees and all that-while he prepares ways to raise money and work up his sermons, is a weekend preacher, not a pastor. When you go pastor, you gotta pastor! Go out to the people. And, that's what I did. So, I was very much involved. I didn't spread myself too thin, I knew how to delegate responsibility.

RM: We've been hearing a lot about Earth changes and for a number of years, now. I'm curious first of all of your overall outlook of the Earth changes. Is it doom and gloom, or change for the better? Are we moving into a new era of raised consciousness. And, how does that mesh with the traditional Christian apocalyptic prophecies?

BH: The Christians, in terms of prophecies, not necessarily traditional, know that there is to be a last day. It's not set in time. It tells us there will be wars and rumors of wars. And, that's the beginning of the end. It doesn't say a renewal. It says "the end."
I tell people, "God didn't set a date because he knew human nature. If he had set a date, somebodys bound to be late!" (both laugh) So, be that as it may, the prophecy of our people is that one time the buffalo was sick in the west: whether it's a flood, or whatever it is, (it) will come from the west. That's when the overall changes of the planet are supposed to take place. Four legs of the buffalo ... each leg stood for an age. The prophecy of about eight years ago is that the buffalo is standing on one leg now, and most of the hair on his back is gone. When that other leg goes .. I don't know exactly when, I do know that there have been climate changes. Where we never used to hear of tornadoes-way back there-it happens most anywhere now. There must be some shifting of the Earth in some way.
Many of our agricultural areas have been overworked. The winds and natural things like fire ... floods, have washed the topsoil away so that the depth of the soil is not like it used to be. When that is gone, then how are we going to think in terms of survival? Before that last leg of the buffalo gives way, there will be some great challenges, even to survive. We had a drought year this year-that's just (the) tip of the iceberg of what we can expect in the next few years to come.
There may be some rainy season; maybe one or two years in between, but when the drought hits it's going to be not only in the US area, but in Europe as well. Like I said, water is going to be the real value, more so than the stock market closing at such a point!

RM: We've often heard that the best prophecies are the ones that never come true, meaning that a warning was given and heard, then changes in our actions created a different outcome. In other words, some prophecies are nothing more then the logical conclusion of continued actions extended into the future. Are we beyond the point of no return now, or could we change fast enough to correct things?

BH: I think perhaps, not becoming what you might call a religious fanatic. Years back, back in Oklahoma when I lived there, there were some groups that said such and such a thing would be the last day. They were gathering all their believers and finding caves to go in. I talked to one of them-I was just a young minister then-(I asked) "If you know this to be true and it is coming, why aren't you out there telling people rather than hiding out?" I didn't see the logic of it.
Knowing that such a day will come, and it seems like we've had rumors of wars-Bosnia, and Sudan's acting up again-many, many things point that this might be the beginning of things, rather than to panic, if we could band ourselves together to appeal to the compassion of our Creator, on behalf of those he's blessed us with: children and grandchildren and those of generations to come. I'm thinking in terms of a good man. Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah. If God, at that time, could spare someone from a disastrous event, could he listen to us if we all appealed to him for an extension of some good years-giving the generations following after us a chance?
Every time a drive-by shooting happens, immediately we respond as if a bad thing happened and it is. They took somebody's life. We fail to see, What was my part in it?" "Why didn't I pray for that situation?" We wait 'til things like this happen, then we point fingers. The one that we leave out is ourselves.
Reminds me of the old revival "hell" in some tent meeting. Some preacher's preaching up a storm, lambasting, "hell this," and the man sitting in the back, "Preach it to 'em brother, preach it to 'em!"
Never, preach it to me. It's always bypass the self. We need to be made aware of our responsibilities of upholding what is right.
We have a long way to go in cleaning up our act. Whoever is elected president is not going to win everybody 100%. There will always be criticism. But, before we criticize, why don't we pray for the president for God's wisdom to be imbued into the minds of our leaders?

RM: I see what you and a lot of other elders are doing, is bringing this message into the dominant culture. Is that how you see your role?

BH: At the criticism of our own people! "They're selling out our values." "They're selling out our traditions."
We're trying to bring a message for people to become aware. Let's go to the Native American Church. Some people say "Keep the non-native out of there." And, so, people come and ask me. I say, if you want this all native, then call it some other name! Don't add the word church. When you add the word "church," that's somebody elses realm, not ours.

RM: We see throughout history-take China, for instance where one nation is taken over by an invader. But then, we see the invader ultimately being absorbed back into the culture of the one they conquered! Do you see this happening in North America today to any extent?

BH: Well, the ones talking over there now (speaking of those teaching at the Medicine Wheel Gathering. pub.), they have absorbed the good things of our culture and are passing that on. I'm here for many reasons. But, if the A.I.M. (American Indian Movement) group ever came here, I would be the one to talk to them. I've confronted them before.

RM: Take us off on a little different direction now. We hear almost exclusively of "medicine man." Historically, what about women as medicine people, too?

BH: In our culture, we refer to God as "he." In the Bible, you never hear of the woman in the genealogy. So, naturally we just assume and use the word "medicine men." But, in my tribe we had just about as many medicine women as medicine men. Some were very, very powerful medicine women. The only thing, they couldn't start practicing until later in life, maybe after menopause. Maybe some can start, all right, but when they are in their period, they can't make medicine. They have to wait until that's over with.

RM: Then it's not because of some philosophical prejudice, it has more to do with working with the energies ...

BH: Yes.

RM: Another misconception is that women had no voice or influence in the decision making process. What is the truth here?

BH: It was the practice of many tribes not to mix women with men. Especially if she was in her period. Even the husband often stayed away from his wife, then. So, in the tribal council only the men held office, and so on.
In the Seminoles of Oklahoma, I had a half-brother whose aunt became the first "governor." They didn't have a chief, they had governors. She became the first woman governor among the Seminoles, and that was years ago.
Since that time, not too long ago at Isleta Pueblo, there was a woman that took over. I mean that was a tough, traditional thing. But, she became the chairman of the pueblo. Then, Wilma Mankiller, Cherokee, became Chief of the Cherokee in Oklahoma.
The real power, even when they didn't have a voice in tribal government ... the women got together and discussed things among themselves. If their husbands voted a certain way that the women didn't like, they saw to it that it was changed.

RM: So it was democratic, but in a surreptitious way.

BH: Yes.

RM: We often think of the native nations as being governed by a theocracy, where the spirituality, or religious beliefs, are very tightly interwoven into the governing of the people. Is that accurate?

BH: Yes. In my tribe, we had forty-four villages at one time. We had a principal chief, and there was a chief of each village, a sub-chief. If there was to be a battle, we had two societies. We had many clans, but two societies, white stick and red stick. A date was set to fight, so the number of days before that day would come would be tied in a bundle, part of it dipped in red. Each day, they'd throw a stick away. After the last stick, they would meet at a prearranged place before going into battle.
During that time we had no minister or churches but, we had the medicine man, because he spent a lot of time in communication with Creator, sort of a holy man. Why they waited-they didn't just jump up and go fight, they gave the medicine man time to make contact and to do certain medicine for the war chief and do things. Not necessarily to win the battle, but to fight bravely, and not be fatally wounded and to make it home.
There were many things he would make, maybe a certain feather for the war chief. There were many preparations. That's the nearest to a religious or spiritual interweaving (there was), even in our battle. They would go with the feeling they were not alone, that there was a greater power that you couldn't see, but it went with them. It gave them the confidence to fight.

RM: At these gatherings you're teaching us about self-respect, respect for each other and the Earth Mother, caring for each other and the Earth Mother, and so on. But, what of the close-held knowledge that you have of the traditional medicine ways? Are you passing that on to anyone else now?

BH: Yes. One is my own grandson. My daughters son. He's learning. He won't learn all that I've learned. There were various tests I had to go through-he'll go through some of them, but not what I've done. There was a lot for protection from witchcraft (not Wicca. pub.), which was running rampant when I grew up, among our people. We don't have so much of that anymore, but there are some, maybe other tribes have it. I have enough protection ways that I can pass on to him, without (him) having to experience some of the things I had to. Mostly, it will be to help people that are in need, and he's already doing that. Counseling with his peers.

RM: Are there others?

BH: Yes. I have a niece. And another one in California and a nephew in the San Francisco area and one in the Los Angeles/Santa Monica area. Those are the basic few I authorize to pass that on to some qualified person(s). I've written down some of the qualifications for them to watch out for. I'm not here to make a medicine person out of anyone, except for the philosophy by which we have lived.
What we grew up with was respect. Respect for elders-respect them in every way, try to make them comfortable. I don't see that in today's culture. The children-it's "gimmie!" And if they don't get it ... (he gestures).
The relationship is strained. Maybe that could be avoided if they knew respect. While our elders were talking, the children were taken aside and told to play somewhere else. So, we grew up with respect for people.

RM: What do you consider our greatest challenges in society today?

BH: Deterioration of family life! Husband works, wife works, children spend (too) much time unsupervised. If we are at home, there's a TV in every room-each one has there own. Father got a new computer, spends all of his time in front of that icon. (both laugh) Our attention is diverted to those things that take over much of our time.
I told the father of a child, on the child's birthday I said, "What are you going to do?" "Oh, I'm gonna get him this and that and so on." I said, "You know, it's not so much what we do for our children, as it is what we do with our children that's important."
Don't ever lose that contact. Do something with the child, they'll value that a lot. But, if you're too busy "Here! Here's some money, go do what you want." The leave me alone type .

RM: What do you consider your greatest triumphs, so far? Any favorites?

BH: If there's any triumph, I hardly ever look at some of the things I've done but, one was to pray with the President of the United States, Harry Truman. Not that it made me any greater as a person, but it gave me a new perspective I didn't have. Praying for the President was not only for the man, but for the office he represents.
Instead of giving criticism, if I had prayed for him, maybe I have a right to criticize him. Maybe I didn't vote for him! Criticism is OK if you have a better alternative. If you don't, let some other power that knows bless him in such a way so he can make the right decisions.
So, I left that office not only committed to praying for whoever becomes president-whether I voted for him or not, whether I agree with his policies or not I can still present him as a human being in charge of the country. You know that the president is going to be hit from all sides. So, that made me grow up a little bit more as a person. It did me good to have had that experience. Especially when I was praying with him.

RM: What are your plans now for the short term and long term future?

BH: Well, with the age span that I'm in, I'm trying to impart some of the basic things that I see needed in society. All races. Not only native, but non-native as well.
There was a black nanny that took care of me when I was small. She was my aunt, as far as I was concerned. Her son walked me to day-school, which was about a mile from our house. He walked me almost to the school, through the pasture to the road. Then, I'd step down and run on to school. Snowing. He'd be there waiting for me, then carry me back.
So, early in life I began to embrace all mankind, regardless of color. When I see people-I observe a lot, I've been taught to observe, sometimes observing without putting all your emotions out there so you can stay on solid ground in case your services are needed, you'll be able to pull the person up-so my time is not wasted.

RM: Are you still accepting people who want to vision quest with your guidance?